Photos and Interview by: Tom Roth

Photos of Flobots’ September 16 Show at Portland’s Hawthorne Theater below

Apes on Tape: How are the Flobots of The Circle in the Square different from the Flobots of Survival Story or Fight With Tools?

Brer Rabbit: The big difference is growing up. I feel like each and every one of our albums has been developmentally appropriate, retrospectively. Fight With Tools, we were borrowing images directly from propaganda of World War I and World War II. That’s also where we were: we were screaming from our soap box to folks. Then, with Survival Story, we kind of went into a deeper adolescence and as a point of adolescence, went deep into our basements and wrote something that was incredibly arcane and self-referential. I think that was very appropriate. It went from slogans to stories. I feel like The Circle in the Square is not necessarily a combination of both, but kind of an advancement on our original principles you found on Fight With Tools so it feels more like a continuation of that kind of impulse also because, creatively, it was made independently. The story of Fight With Tools and The Circle in the Square is the same, where we made the albums on our own terms, paid for them on our own terms, and then somebody said that they wanted to put it out. So, I think even that – the different outside influences, or the lack thereof – is what speaks to the differences between the albums. This one is much more of a continuation of Fight With Tools, not necessarily a continuation of Survival Story.

We’re really proud of it. It feels really great. It was interesting being able to do it on our own terms, and our own budget. We got to do everything that we wanted to do so it was incredibly satisfying.

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AoT: Including some travel?

BR: Yes, yes [laughs] including some travel. We were able to go to the Middle East…. I don’t think people realize that when they’re on the internet, that some of their comments they say can  get back to the artist. I remember one of the criticisms of Fight With Tools was that it felt as though we were talking about issues as though we’d ripped them from the headlines. In a way, that was like “huh… alright…” Like, regardless of what people felt about it, that’s still a very good critique to have. We don’t want to be singing or talking about things that we haven’t at least made the effort to not just research, but experience. I think in this day and age, it’s very easy to research stuff but it still doesn’t bring you any closer to the people. I think there’s a lot of tyranny that happens when you mistake a Wikipedia article for a person or a situation. With all the work we’ve done working with youth and agencies and peace work, especially with youth from Israel and Palestine, it was time for us to go. We went not as musicians. We just went as people going around to meet people who were living there. It was so much more than we could have imagined. That’s what always happens. Any time that you have the opportunity to talk to people in it, your mind will be blown. Doesn’t matter if its teachers striking down the street from you. Talk to them. Talk to the administration. You’re gonna find out a lot more than what you do from sound bites from newspapers or any other place that has these agendas. It was really amazing to go to the Middle East just to go. More than anything, what we came back with was a an (understanding why) the Middle East becomes a nexus for human rights issues in the world. As a nexus, that means what’s going on there, is actually happening everywhere. That’s why it’s a nexus point. It’s so easy to come in, visit, judge, and say like “well, this is what’s jacked up about this place. This is what needs to happen…” That’s not how it works. Because if we come back to the United States, we can very easily say, “ok, where is our wall? Where are our refugee camps? Where are the borders?” In that process, I went on a trip to Tucson, Arizona and went to the wall, and found out that the wall that’s built in Israel is made by the same company that made the wall that’s dividing the US and Mexico in Arizona. We have those places here. If we can sit down and judge what’s happening there, we need to look at what’s happening here and see what in my privilege allows me to not know what it’s actually like on the border? What is the legislation? Who are the people being incarcerated? I went to the actual courts and saw the streamlining where they take people fresh from the desert where they’ve been caught, all linked up in chains, and all are being incarcerated by script. Each one of them has a lawyer and the whole thing’s being interpreted. The whole process is just a mockery of what we’ve set up. All they do is say “Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes” not knowing that they’re criminalizing themselves instead of just being deported. So it’s just…  I never knew that. And if I hadn’t gone, I wouldn’t have found those things out and seen the people involved or just even talked to them. There’s a lot more humility in this album and really trying to cry out for advocating for humanity at each point in time. Even folks with the best intentions can put a cause in front of the people and that in itself is perpetuating a different type of injustice. It feels like in growing up, we start to look at how you actually focus.

AoT: It certainly sounds like your experiences abroad in the Middle East translated to going to Tucson and seeing the border. Would you also say that that’s where the domestic tie-in with the Occupy movement comes into play?

BR: Yes. It’s amazing. When we were in Jordan, that’s when a lot of things were happening in Tahir Square and you’d be seeing sprinklings of revolution happening all over the Middle East. Then, you come back to the United States, and you see folks giving a damn. It’s very amazing how the microcosm represents the macro. It’s encouraging. It’s encouraging to see folks of a generation younger than myself contemplating being active, and seeing something. It’s amazing to me how often people will evaluate movements, and say “well, it hasn’t generated anything”. Well, the fact that it exists is what’s so valuable about it. You can actually go back and find articles in the ‘60’s and ‘50’s talking about how the Civil Rights Movement hasn’t really generated much. It’s one of those things that’s not actually that apprehendable in the moment. I think that’s also what gives me hope. There’s the possibility of us being right in the middle of something that history will view to be a very important movement. And we get to decide if that happens. It’s exciting. And it’s gonna be a lot of work. It’s gonna be a whole lot of work but there’s more people moving now than before.

AoT: On the website, Flobots offers free music to people who pledge to vote. How are the Flobots getting involved in this election year?

BR: In the past we used to actually have our street team through our nonprofit get trained all over the United States to register people to vote before each of the shows, as opposed to putting up stickers and things like that. This time around, our nonprofit is so focused on building our studio and teaching classes in the Denver Public Schools system, specifically in schools where the music and arts programs have been removed, it’s like all of our resources have gone to that so we don’t have the same  amount of resources to do the voter registration but at the same time, we’re really trying to encourage people now, more than ever, to go out and vote and that the election is not the main point of voting. So many people who are so passionate and so fired up and so driven to do something and then when I talk to them about voting, they’re like “No, I don’t vote” and they say it with pride! And I’m like, “hey, man, do you realize if you’re thinking about this as being a war, you need to use every tool that you have?” So… some of the things that are being passed, some of the things that are being instituted during an election will affect you in a very real way. Some of these things that come up on a local ballot… like if a little bit more of taxes goes to schools: you’re gonna tell me you’re not gonna use that tool? So you’re gonna sit there, yell in the streets, do all this fighting and not have the needle move a bit forward when you could be fighting this on so many different fronts. I’m really trying to encourage people to use as many tools as possible to bring change about. That’s what’s essential, I think. We’re really trying to push people to get engaged in as many ways as possible that are vital to them but at the same time, putting trust in themselves… putting people in a democracy. Voting is a part of that. There’s no doubt that it is a tool and I think it’s so much better to say that you voted even if you think the voting doesn’t work, as opposed to saying that it doesn’t work, not knowing about the issues, not knowing the people making decisions, and not knowing how you can make a difference. Why choose the “off” switch? We’re campaigning against the “off” switch at this point.

It’s not enough to say that all politicians are crooked. I’m like, “ok, and what? And then what?” It’s like if you’re on Facebook and you get in an argument with some of your best friends about those in the Democratic party or the Republican party, it’s like “Ok, um, that definitely doesn’t help”. It’s not moving anything forward. I think actually, if you want to get into any kind of conspiracy, those are self-actualizing conspiracies that make us powerless. I really feel like we have the opportunity for a true democracy and if you choose not to be involved, you’re choosing to give your power to somebody else.

It’s amazing. Myself, I’m an independent. As such, I can’t participate in the caucuses. But then, when they’re doing some of the Democratic caucuses in Denver for the last election… it was amazing getting to see how democracy works. Because the caucus is a group of passionate people – at that point in time – talking about Hillary or Barack Obama. It was incredible. There were no politicians in there. It was just people! Schoolteachers and business folks, just sitting there talking, speaking their minds and then folks reacting. Like, that… that’s incredible! That’s what it’s all about! And we don’t get to see the people part of the democracy, we just get to see different new stations with their own slants going at it, and we don’t get to see how we get to affect it. That stuff is pretty amazing to behold, just to even see and be a part of. It was very encouraging for me and I think a lot of people would be encouraged if they could see themselves in it. I think the only way that happens is if we get involved. Otherwise, it will seem like some gargantuan that we’re not affecting.

AoT: One track that stands out on the album is “On Loss and Having”. Instrumentally: dark. Lyrically: darker. What was the songwriting process like for “On Loss and Having”?

BR: There were a lot of things that went into it. One of them was how a Christian nation can delight in the assassination of Osama Bin Laden. That was one of the things. And then also going into it is just the song itself: on loss and having. You don’t have loss unless you have something precious. When the cutting off of something precious happens, it is devastating: from a loved one, lost political situations, a friendship lost over petty internal strife. Often, when that precious, essential thing gets cut away, you can feel its lack. Sometimes that lack resonates even more fully than the having. One of the metaphors is phantom limb sensation. The thing that’s cut away: you can still feel it in its absence. It plagues you.

What have we lost? I think we were so desperate for something and there was such an impetus for action after 9/11 that there were a lot of things we cut away; a lot of ideas about freedom. The idea of what is in the people’s hands is very different and I think it’s because of the catastrophic loss of 9/11. It’s one of the things that allowed us to justify wars that now we realize had no justification. It’s dark. It’s sad. And that is what it’s about. What is the cost? What are we cutting away? That song has some of my favorite musical moments. The bridge in it is so… huge. It feels like a… a slowly settling pool of anger is formed like after a tsunami. It just crashes upon you. The way the bass and the viola and the drums interact… that’s one of my favorite moments on the album.

AoT: Lyricism is central to Flobot’s music. Oftentimes the message is pretty explicit in the way it’s communicated but sometimes less so, it’s a little more ambiguous. Is that something intentional? Do you try to go one way on one track and another way on another?

BR: We try to balance. We don’t want to be didactic. We try to write in such a way that we hope folks will enjoy it and engage the material and do it with their minds activated so we’re constantly doing this balancing act because we think that there is enough out there telling directly how to think. We really hope that the folks who enjoy our music also enjoy the fact that we are trying to start a conversation. They are the other half. The listener is the other half. So it is deliberate and I think in some ways it makes it less… absorbable? To do those kinds of things, you don’t get it as easily. I mean, even with “Handlebars”, I remember the people who were like “‘Handlebars’ is my favorite song!” I’m like “Oh, that’s great. Can you tell me what it’s about?” To take nothing away from them, different people absorb their entertainment in different ways and I feel like when you write it the way that we do, it doesn’t make it as easy to just… absorb it. One of the fun things is websites like RapGenius.com. It’s so much fun to go back and see what people’s interpretations are. I’m so excited to see what people are saying, and engaging their minds; taking it where they see it going. Anytime I’m having a bad day, I’ll go back and look at Rap Genius…. We just recently gotten the certification to be the “Verified Artist” but I don’t really want it…. I feel like that’s the point of making public art. And that’s one of the beauties of not laying it all out. Jonny 5 and myself are huge fans of comics and comic books kind of function by provocatively filling the empty spaces so what happens from one panel to the next, the reader has to complete it. That influences how we write. We leave a lot of space. Not incredibly abstract, but to fill those areas – when people put their own minds into it – we get something else. That’s been one of my favorite things. Sometimes after shows, I talk to folks and they’re like “Hey, man, I wanna talk to you about this song” and they just tell me about. It’s like “Yes!” [laughs]. That is awesome! There’s nothing wrong about that.

AoT: “The Rose and the Thistle” seems so much more light-hearted in contrast to tracks “On Loss and Having”. How do you see that track fitting into the album?

BR: So much of this album is a documenting of the year in making it. In that year, we had a lineup change. That was painful. It’s not easy to have a friend move onto another project. That’s also part of where “On Loss and Having” came from. Also in that process, we had marriages, McKenzie had a baby, and there’s a lot of celebration of life. That’s where songs like “The Rose and the Thistle” come from. Some of those celebrations, we feel like it’s really easy to paint a revolution in stark tones of black, white, and reds but when you look up close and talk to people who’ve actually been through it, there’s plenty of greens, and blues, and purples in there as well. They keep you going. It’s a celebration of life and the chance of new opportunities. In a very real way, you can say that “The Rose and the Thistle” which is so plant-based: life, explosion, spring, growing things… that’s where that’s from. When we were writing the album, we were like “I think that some people are gonna think this is kinda schizophrenic” but it’s true; that’s where we were. So that’s where songs like that fit in.